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	<title>Comments on: What do students want from an art education?</title>
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	<link>http://artandperception.com/2006/10/what-do-students-want-from-an-art-education.html</link>
	<description>a multi-disciplinary dialog</description>
	<pubDate>Tue, 06 Jan 2009 09:40:29 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: karl zipser</title>
		<link>http://artandperception.com/2006/10/what-do-students-want-from-an-art-education.html#comment-429</link>
		<dc:creator>karl zipser</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Oct 2006 06:05:00 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Lisa,

The comments I made about the progress of science are based on my own observations and experiences in neuroscience. I think what I say is probably obvious to everyone working in that field.

I am familiar with the Kuhn book's main ideas (I think) but I have not read it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Lisa,</p>
<p>The comments I made about the progress of science are based on my own observations and experiences in neuroscience. I think what I say is probably obvious to everyone working in that field.</p>
<p>I am familiar with the Kuhn book&#8217;s main ideas (I think) but I have not read it.</p>
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		<title>By: David</title>
		<link>http://artandperception.com/2006/10/what-do-students-want-from-an-art-education.html#comment-428</link>
		<dc:creator>David</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Oct 2006 10:11:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.artandperception.com/v01/2006/10/what-do-students-want-from-an-art-education.html#comment-428</guid>
		<description>Karl, I read the Kuhn book as well, and I agree w/ Lisa that it's excellent. 

One of the most inspiring and insightful books I've read on the art process is Brian Eno's diary, &lt;I&gt;A Year with Swollen Appendices&lt;/I&gt;. It's unfortunately out of print, but seems to be available on Amazon through resellers (a bit pricey though).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Karl, I read the Kuhn book as well, and I agree w/ Lisa that it&#8217;s excellent. </p>
<p>One of the most inspiring and insightful books I&#8217;ve read on the art process is Brian Eno&#8217;s diary, <i>A Year with Swollen Appendices</i>. It&#8217;s unfortunately out of print, but seems to be available on Amazon through resellers (a bit pricey though).</p>
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		<title>By: Lisa Call</title>
		<link>http://artandperception.com/2006/10/what-do-students-want-from-an-art-education.html#comment-427</link>
		<dc:creator>Lisa Call</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Oct 2006 09:34:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.artandperception.com/v01/2006/10/what-do-students-want-from-an-art-education.html#comment-427</guid>
		<description>Karl, from one of your comments I wonder if you are familiar with the book The Structure of Scientific Revolutions by Kuhn.  http://www.amazon.com/Structure-Scientific-Revolutions-Thomas-Kuhn/dp/0226458083
a nice summary of the book is here http://www.des.emory.edu/mfp/kuhnsyn.html
also a good wikipedia page:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Structure_of_Scientific_Revolutions

I read this book in my honors computer science class my senior year as a CS major.  It's one of those books that has made a lasting lifetime impression on me.  


Found your blog via Tracy's.  Lots of interesting content - thanks.

I work a fulltime job but I do not consider it a horrible thing either.  I have the luxury of going to my studio and not having to think "will this sell" and that is invaluable to my growth.  At least for this stage of my art career.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Karl, from one of your comments I wonder if you are familiar with the book The Structure of Scientific Revolutions by Kuhn.  <a href="http://www.amazon.com/Structure-Scientific-Revolutions-Thomas-Kuhn/dp/0226458083" onclick="javascript:pageTracker._trackPageview('/outbound/comment/www.amazon.com');" rel="nofollow">http://www.amazon.com/Structure-Scientific-Revolutions-Thomas-Kuhn/dp/0226458083</a><br />
a nice summary of the book is here <a href="http://www.des.emory.edu/mfp/kuhnsyn.html" onclick="javascript:pageTracker._trackPageview('/outbound/comment/www.des.emory.edu');" rel="nofollow">http://www.des.emory.edu/mfp/kuhnsyn.html</a><br />
also a good wikipedia page:<br />
<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Structure_of_Scientific_Revolutions" onclick="javascript:pageTracker._trackPageview('/outbound/comment/en.wikipedia.org');" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Structure_of_Scientific_Revolutions</a></p>
<p>I read this book in my honors computer science class my senior year as a CS major.  It&#8217;s one of those books that has made a lasting lifetime impression on me.  </p>
<p>Found your blog via Tracy&#8217;s.  Lots of interesting content - thanks.</p>
<p>I work a fulltime job but I do not consider it a horrible thing either.  I have the luxury of going to my studio and not having to think &#8220;will this sell&#8221; and that is invaluable to my growth.  At least for this stage of my art career.</p>
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		<title>By: Tracy Helgeson</title>
		<link>http://artandperception.com/2006/10/what-do-students-want-from-an-art-education.html#comment-426</link>
		<dc:creator>Tracy Helgeson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 09 Oct 2006 17:53:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.artandperception.com/v01/2006/10/what-do-students-want-from-an-art-education.html#comment-426</guid>
		<description>I have a post up today regarding my decision to work with galleries rather than selling my own work via the internet. While at first it was a practical decision (not enough time in the day), now I see that in order to get the opportunities that I envision for my work, (rightly or wrongly, who knows?) working with a gallery is the best way for that to happen. 

I agree with much of what David said about Painting a Day. I don't really see it as a movement, but rather as a process that takes advantage of the internet for sales and as a non threatening way for people to buy art. Which is good for all involved. I think PAD is interesting, and a really good way to develop various skills as an artist. Will it be taken seriously, or is it simply a passing fad? Will it influence future artists? I don't know, but I do find the whole thing interesting to watch and there a few that I check every day or so.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have a post up today regarding my decision to work with galleries rather than selling my own work via the internet. While at first it was a practical decision (not enough time in the day), now I see that in order to get the opportunities that I envision for my work, (rightly or wrongly, who knows?) working with a gallery is the best way for that to happen. </p>
<p>I agree with much of what David said about Painting a Day. I don&#8217;t really see it as a movement, but rather as a process that takes advantage of the internet for sales and as a non threatening way for people to buy art. Which is good for all involved. I think PAD is interesting, and a really good way to develop various skills as an artist. Will it be taken seriously, or is it simply a passing fad? Will it influence future artists? I don&#8217;t know, but I do find the whole thing interesting to watch and there a few that I check every day or so.</p>
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		<title>By: Jon Conkey</title>
		<link>http://artandperception.com/2006/10/what-do-students-want-from-an-art-education.html#comment-425</link>
		<dc:creator>Jon Conkey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 09 Oct 2006 16:54:00 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Art school is only as good as the student/teacher relationship created by the student who enters, not every teacher will impress or reach all students; unfortunatly for the student, one must already know what "they are after" then seek that particular advice; so many students today expect all the work to be done for them by a "guru figure" (the "I studied with so and so" clan), ironically they never seem to "out-do" the master whose name they consistantly drop. Instead of putting in the hours required to excel and achieve greatness, by releasing the passion and love they have stored up inside them, many (most) are basically looking for someone to hand them the keys and show them the way to stardom. Good luck!

Perhaps a better question would be; which artist in history was guaranteed a steady income after their training? And, which "school of thought" is superior to all others?

Unfortunate as it is, talent is never enough (and never has been), society in some way needs to be impressed with the performance of any artist before that artist is embraced. The artist is responsible for paying attention the the reactions of their society (if they are looking to make money), society is pretty good about recognizing real talent when they see it, even without any training whatsoever. We have all seen amateurs try to break into the art scene with mass $$$ and corny marketing (every art magazine is filled with them); they only last as long as the $$$ are flowing in; then "poof" their gone.

The best advice I could give "any" student of "anything", would be to discover your "loves and passions", then persue them with all your heart, and learn they histories of what it is you like; that way if it leads you to nowhere, you will have at least mostly enjoyed the path getting there; which is better than folks that do what they hate everyday. 

A brief note on day jobs...As an artist, I choose day jobs that used my art skills most of my working career; pinstripping cars, litho press assistant, gallery manager, picture framer, restoration, etc. All the while gaining valuable information that I could later use in my art. Hopefully, my two cents will help someone. JLC</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Art school is only as good as the student/teacher relationship created by the student who enters, not every teacher will impress or reach all students; unfortunatly for the student, one must already know what &#8220;they are after&#8221; then seek that particular advice; so many students today expect all the work to be done for them by a &#8220;guru figure&#8221; (the &#8220;I studied with so and so&#8221; clan), ironically they never seem to &#8220;out-do&#8221; the master whose name they consistantly drop. Instead of putting in the hours required to excel and achieve greatness, by releasing the passion and love they have stored up inside them, many (most) are basically looking for someone to hand them the keys and show them the way to stardom. Good luck!</p>
<p>Perhaps a better question would be; which artist in history was guaranteed a steady income after their training? And, which &#8220;school of thought&#8221; is superior to all others?</p>
<p>Unfortunate as it is, talent is never enough (and never has been), society in some way needs to be impressed with the performance of any artist before that artist is embraced. The artist is responsible for paying attention the the reactions of their society (if they are looking to make money), society is pretty good about recognizing real talent when they see it, even without any training whatsoever. We have all seen amateurs try to break into the art scene with mass $$$ and corny marketing (every art magazine is filled with them); they only last as long as the $$$ are flowing in; then &#8220;poof&#8221; their gone.</p>
<p>The best advice I could give &#8220;any&#8221; student of &#8220;anything&#8221;, would be to discover your &#8220;loves and passions&#8221;, then persue them with all your heart, and learn they histories of what it is you like; that way if it leads you to nowhere, you will have at least mostly enjoyed the path getting there; which is better than folks that do what they hate everyday. </p>
<p>A brief note on day jobs&#8230;As an artist, I choose day jobs that used my art skills most of my working career; pinstripping cars, litho press assistant, gallery manager, picture framer, restoration, etc. All the while gaining valuable information that I could later use in my art. Hopefully, my two cents will help someone. JLC</p>
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		<title>By: David</title>
		<link>http://artandperception.com/2006/10/what-do-students-want-from-an-art-education.html#comment-424</link>
		<dc:creator>David</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 09 Oct 2006 13:14:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.artandperception.com/v01/2006/10/what-do-students-want-from-an-art-education.html#comment-424</guid>
		<description>Karl, you make some good points. I look forward to hearing more about this movement, even if at first I don't find it that interesting. I agree with your statement that the public has become alienated from art. I'm just not sure that the solution is endlessly producing the same things we've seen over and over again.

Regarding what you said about the incremental nature of the progress of science, I understand that, but the difference is that science (hopefully) is at least trying to move forward from where we are, not redoing the same experiments they were doing hundreds of years ago.

PS - I just want to add that I'm really enjoying this discussion. In looking at the timestamps on these comments, I'm struck by the fact that we're thousands of miles and many timezones way (I'm heading out to lunch) and are all able to have a conversation.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Karl, you make some good points. I look forward to hearing more about this movement, even if at first I don&#8217;t find it that interesting. I agree with your statement that the public has become alienated from art. I&#8217;m just not sure that the solution is endlessly producing the same things we&#8217;ve seen over and over again.</p>
<p>Regarding what you said about the incremental nature of the progress of science, I understand that, but the difference is that science (hopefully) is at least trying to move forward from where we are, not redoing the same experiments they were doing hundreds of years ago.</p>
<p>PS - I just want to add that I&#8217;m really enjoying this discussion. In looking at the timestamps on these comments, I&#8217;m struck by the fact that we&#8217;re thousands of miles and many timezones way (I&#8217;m heading out to lunch) and are all able to have a conversation.</p>
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		<title>By: Karl Zipser</title>
		<link>http://artandperception.com/2006/10/what-do-students-want-from-an-art-education.html#comment-423</link>
		<dc:creator>Karl Zipser</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 09 Oct 2006 12:58:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.artandperception.com/v01/2006/10/what-do-students-want-from-an-art-education.html#comment-423</guid>
		<description>What I tried to express in the &lt;a HREF="http://www.zipser.nl/2006/09/what-is-art.html" rel="nofollow"&gt;What is Art?&lt;/A&gt; and &lt;a HREF="http://www.zipser.nl/2006/05/fall-of-art-world.html" rel="nofollow"&gt;Fall of the art world&lt;/A&gt; posts is the idea that the buyer has become alienated from art. It seems that Painting a Day is a way for the artists to reconnect with the public. It is logical that the initial work in such a movement would seem conventional. What is interesting is the by-passing of the galleries.

If the buyer and the artist recommence a meaningful dialogue then I would expect that appreciation of art should develop. The Painting a Day painters, or their successors, will stimulate this process and react to it, making more interesting artwork.

As for science, much of what goes on is repeating the same experiments, with subtle variations. Progress is often slow, with occasional breakthroughs that lead to a flurry of new research. The reason is perhaps the same as for the conservative nature of the Painting a Day artwork: in order to be funded, a research program has to have some prospect of success, and for this, it cannot be radically speculative. The science world supports a lot of scientists doing normal work, so a few can do outstanding work. That is the way it has to be if you want to get the outstanding work done -- because no one knows ahead of time who is going to do that work. In the art world, you have to be outstanding simply to make a living. For many talented people, just surviving is not enough incentive to go into art full time.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What I tried to express in the <a href="http://www.zipser.nl/2006/09/what-is-art.html" onclick="javascript:pageTracker._trackPageview('/outbound/comment/www.zipser.nl');" rel="nofollow">What is Art?</a> and <a href="http://www.zipser.nl/2006/05/fall-of-art-world.html" onclick="javascript:pageTracker._trackPageview('/outbound/comment/www.zipser.nl');" rel="nofollow">Fall of the art world</a> posts is the idea that the buyer has become alienated from art. It seems that Painting a Day is a way for the artists to reconnect with the public. It is logical that the initial work in such a movement would seem conventional. What is interesting is the by-passing of the galleries.</p>
<p>If the buyer and the artist recommence a meaningful dialogue then I would expect that appreciation of art should develop. The Painting a Day painters, or their successors, will stimulate this process and react to it, making more interesting artwork.</p>
<p>As for science, much of what goes on is repeating the same experiments, with subtle variations. Progress is often slow, with occasional breakthroughs that lead to a flurry of new research. The reason is perhaps the same as for the conservative nature of the Painting a Day artwork: in order to be funded, a research program has to have some prospect of success, and for this, it cannot be radically speculative. The science world supports a lot of scientists doing normal work, so a few can do outstanding work. That is the way it has to be if you want to get the outstanding work done &#8212; because no one knows ahead of time who is going to do that work. In the art world, you have to be outstanding simply to make a living. For many talented people, just surviving is not enough incentive to go into art full time.</p>
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