I can’t speak for the others, but I found your comments on the varied aspects of your vase painting fascinating. I think it’s the conjunction of your interest in the technical processes (and your own experience with it), the historical background you have provided, and finally your own processing of these elements through your painting that brings it into another focus for me.

Thanks.

The topic of how the ancient vase painters projected their figures onto the vases is most interesting. As you say, in this vase the figure is constrained to follow the curve of the vase. This was the standard approach for centuries. The later Greek vase paintings attempted to break the form of the vase in a dramatic way.

What a great photo. History is a filter, that is for certain. The best things get saved, the rest gets tossed. The process can be gradual. Joe makes a mediocre painting. His son stores it in the attic. His grandson throws away the dusty and damaged canvas. That’s why the most important part of painting a permanent picture is painting a good picture, I guess.

Leslie, the topic of the reference to other art is not in itself interesting to me, in then sense of it being a purpose for making a picture. Rather, the thing that we can label “reference to other art” is interesting to me in its content or effect. That’s not an easy distinction to make, so let me say it another way. I don’t say “I want to reference other art in my work.” Rather, I do it because I like what it says to me, which is the same reason I do other things that are not references to other art work.

The Athenian vases as forms are a fascinating topic, whether you want to call pottery an art or a craft. Some of the forms were developed over hundreds or thousands of years (for example, the amphora, a storage vase with two vertical handles). The stamnos on the other hand was a product developed during a particular historical period. Both were often used to store wine.

These vases are not glazed in the normal sense, but painted with a clay slip refined so that the particles are very small. The physical/chemical properties of this slip mean that it can be fired so that it turns black, while the body color of the vase remains red. But the slip is made from the same clay type as the vase itself, so without special firing techniques, the entire vase would be red. This vase is an example of a “red figure” vase, the black being the applied slip. An alternative is “black figure” where the figures were painted black and details etched away with a needle. The black, the fired slip, has a metallic gloss, whereas the red terra-cotta visible in the man has only a slight gloss, like a smooth flowerpot.

I am fascinated by this type of “red figure” painting because of the graceful line drawing and anatomy. It is almost impossible to paint fine lines with clay slip because of the characteristics of the clay (it doesn’t flow from the brush like watercolor). The “red figure” painting was only made possible because of a technical development, a sort of syringe used to extrude the slip on the vase — think of a very fine pastry decorating device.

Although we look at this vase as an ancient form, it represents modern art/craft of its time — a recently developed vase form, the stamnos, the graceful drawing style and the recently discovered line drawing device. On the other hand, the basic pottery techniques and the black/red firing system were already ancient at the time (say 500 B.C.). This fantasy vase thus is an image of an ancient object that itself would have been a combination of the latest trends and even more ancient methods.

Greek vases tell historians a lot about Greek life. They can do this because the ceramic techniques produce a very very durable product. The vases may shatter, but if one can collect the pieces, on can reconstruct the vase. The clay and slip are extremely durable and weatherproof. That is why, although all ancient Greek frescos are lost, as well as other painting types, we still have some idea of how the Greeks drew and painted because of these vases.

The technique of black/red firing was lost for more than two thousand years. It was rediscovered in the 20th century. I have had some success in recreating the effect with my own kiln firings, but to produce a vase like the one in this picture is outside of my ability at this time. Thus this painting also represent a fantasy of what I would like to be able to accomplish at a technical level with respect to colors with real ceramics.

All of these things, and many more I have not mentioned, make the topic of the vase significant to me. That is why I say that I don’t paint it as a simple casual reference. It is more something that I have lived with in a sense. Whether others should need to know any of this background is an open question.

When I paint my real vases, I almost never use ancient designs such as this man with the shield.

I agree. Collaboration is a huge and very interesting topic. Karl I think I’m going to ignore it here, and ask that you do a separate post on just that.

It deserves a real exploration on its own. I’d be particularly interested in hearing about how it works in the scientific community, which you have experience in, as well as hearing about people’s experiences in collaborating with people in fields other than their own.

But I do have questions about the vase study. Maybe similar to Steve, I am wondering what your intent is in this piece. Not being familiar with the particular stammos form of the vase, I read this is a painting of a Greek vase (rather than an invented piece)and figured that must be important to you, that the art historical reference is the most imporant element here. However, when you say you are most interested in how a vase can frame an image, I think I am wrong about your interests. Have you done other paintings of vases with your own images on them? I agree that the idea is fasciniating, as well as taking that idea from its natural 3D world to the world of painting. Or perhaps your true interest is in painting on vases? I know you have aluded to doing ceramics also.

The reason I am asking is that although your post addresses art about art, your interest seem to lie in paintings of/on vases, without necessarily being concened about referring the historical practice of vase painting.

Or maybe I should ask more directly: Is the reference to other art important to you? What role does it serve?