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	<title>Comments on: The eyes have it</title>
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	<description>a multi-disciplinary dialog</description>
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		<title>By: Melanie</title>
		<link>http://artandperception.com/2009/06/the-eyes-have-it.html/comment-page-1#comment-209336</link>
		<dc:creator>Melanie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Jul 2009 06:21:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://artandperception.com/?p=4186#comment-209336</guid>
		<description>I&#039;ve been sketching lines in circles recently (draw the circle, fill the space) -- and this discussion of orientation and directionality reminded of the &quot;tip&quot; in a how-to book that got me going on these little drawings. The author recommended drawing in 1/4 of the circle, then turning the page 90 degrees, drawing in that 1/4 circle, and so on around and around. I&#039;ve been finding it interesting since it forces me to give up the idea of directionality -- which was fairly inhibiting when faced with a frame defined as not having sides and, therefore, neither having nor suggesting orientation.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ve been sketching lines in circles recently (draw the circle, fill the space) &#8212; and this discussion of orientation and directionality reminded of the &#8220;tip&#8221; in a how-to book that got me going on these little drawings. The author recommended drawing in 1/4 of the circle, then turning the page 90 degrees, drawing in that 1/4 circle, and so on around and around. I&#8217;ve been finding it interesting since it forces me to give up the idea of directionality &#8212; which was fairly inhibiting when faced with a frame defined as not having sides and, therefore, neither having nor suggesting orientation.</p>
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		<title>By: Jay</title>
		<link>http://artandperception.com/2009/06/the-eyes-have-it.html/comment-page-1#comment-208093</link>
		<dc:creator>Jay</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 21 Jun 2009 19:59:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://artandperception.com/?p=4186#comment-208093</guid>
		<description>Steve:

Give me a Clark bar any day. You mean that Pepe doesn&#039;t comment on the guitar theme? The guitar is oft mentioned, but how often in a tactile frame of reference?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Steve:</p>
<p>Give me a Clark bar any day. You mean that Pepe doesn&#8217;t comment on the guitar theme? The guitar is oft mentioned, but how often in a tactile frame of reference?</p>
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		<title>By: Steve Durbin</title>
		<link>http://artandperception.com/2009/06/the-eyes-have-it.html/comment-page-1#comment-208054</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve Durbin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 21 Jun 2009 15:50:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://artandperception.com/?p=4186#comment-208054</guid>
		<description>Jay,

I&#039;m not sure what other scanning studies were done. I&#039;d ask &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.psykologi.uio.no/pres/sevogt.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Stine Vogt&lt;/a&gt; for her thesis, but I&#039;ve already too much to read. Her basic premise involved interference between a &quot;decoding&quot; mode of perception, which we usually engage in without thinking, and a &quot;veridical&quot; mode in which we try to reduce the amount of unconscious interpretation, as an artist trying to see &quot;real&quot; colors in a scene might do.

I&#039;m still chewing of the Karmel, but in general he is not reading so closely as TJ Clark. As for memes, I can&#039;t believe nobody has mentioned the obvious association of guitar with the female body. Particularly for Picasso, who was &lt;i&gt;very&lt;/i&gt; concerned with the figure (and women). &quot;Ma jolie&quot; is/was a common pet name for &quot;my girlfriend,&quot; but its use in the refrain of a popular song certainly fit with a portrait of his lover playing guitar.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jay,</p>
<p>I&#8217;m not sure what other scanning studies were done. I&#8217;d ask <a href="http://www.psykologi.uio.no/pres/sevogt.html" rel="nofollow">Stine Vogt</a> for her thesis, but I&#8217;ve already too much to read. Her basic premise involved interference between a &#8220;decoding&#8221; mode of perception, which we usually engage in without thinking, and a &#8220;veridical&#8221; mode in which we try to reduce the amount of unconscious interpretation, as an artist trying to see &#8220;real&#8221; colors in a scene might do.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m still chewing of the Karmel, but in general he is not reading so closely as TJ Clark. As for memes, I can&#8217;t believe nobody has mentioned the obvious association of guitar with the female body. Particularly for Picasso, who was <i>very</i> concerned with the figure (and women). &#8220;Ma jolie&#8221; is/was a common pet name for &#8220;my girlfriend,&#8221; but its use in the refrain of a popular song certainly fit with a portrait of his lover playing guitar.</p>
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		<title>By: Jay</title>
		<link>http://artandperception.com/2009/06/the-eyes-have-it.html/comment-page-1#comment-208011</link>
		<dc:creator>Jay</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 21 Jun 2009 00:15:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://artandperception.com/?p=4186#comment-208011</guid>
		<description>Steve:

Some quick takes:

I assume that the study using the optical scanning method addressed a limited question - artist/non-artist. The same methodology could be used to follow that same artist as heshe observed a variety of images. Does the scanning sequence change and, if so, why?

Can the aboriginal person maintain the absolute orientation in a windowless room? When pictures are arranged in a North/South orientation, is the direction true or just an approximation of magnetic or polar North/South?

You sampled the bag of Karmels more than did I. I can&#039;t remember to what extent he got into the Cubist subjects: guitars, glasses, stickers and the like - things to be picked up and handled. And then stuff that we might be inclined to call &quot;memes&quot; these days, that get under the skin and take up residence there. &quot;Ma Jolie&quot;, if I got the title right, was, I believe, the name of a popular song. I can imagine Braque saying: &quot;You know, Picasso, a thousand things happen to me while I&#039;m painting a picture. How can I get that down?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Steve:</p>
<p>Some quick takes:</p>
<p>I assume that the study using the optical scanning method addressed a limited question &#8211; artist/non-artist. The same methodology could be used to follow that same artist as heshe observed a variety of images. Does the scanning sequence change and, if so, why?</p>
<p>Can the aboriginal person maintain the absolute orientation in a windowless room? When pictures are arranged in a North/South orientation, is the direction true or just an approximation of magnetic or polar North/South?</p>
<p>You sampled the bag of Karmels more than did I. I can&#8217;t remember to what extent he got into the Cubist subjects: guitars, glasses, stickers and the like &#8211; things to be picked up and handled. And then stuff that we might be inclined to call &#8220;memes&#8221; these days, that get under the skin and take up residence there. &#8220;Ma Jolie&#8221;, if I got the title right, was, I believe, the name of a popular song. I can imagine Braque saying: &#8220;You know, Picasso, a thousand things happen to me while I&#8217;m painting a picture. How can I get that down?</p>
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		<title>By: Birgit Zipser</title>
		<link>http://artandperception.com/2009/06/the-eyes-have-it.html/comment-page-1#comment-207999</link>
		<dc:creator>Birgit Zipser</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 20 Jun 2009 19:12:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://artandperception.com/?p=4186#comment-207999</guid>
		<description>Steve,

Something else came to mind about our increasingly visual perception. My physical therapist told me to balance on one foot with my eyes closed to train my proprioceptors. Supposedly, proprioception diminishes as one get older. Makes sense. Most of us don&#039;t do much running over irregular territories. Instead, we sit on our office chairs, car seats, sofas. Not much challenge for our joint receptors.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Steve,</p>
<p>Something else came to mind about our increasingly visual perception. My physical therapist told me to balance on one foot with my eyes closed to train my proprioceptors. Supposedly, proprioception diminishes as one get older. Makes sense. Most of us don&#8217;t do much running over irregular territories. Instead, we sit on our office chairs, car seats, sofas. Not much challenge for our joint receptors.</p>
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		<title>By: Steve Durbin</title>
		<link>http://artandperception.com/2009/06/the-eyes-have-it.html/comment-page-1#comment-207998</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve Durbin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 20 Jun 2009 18:58:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://artandperception.com/?p=4186#comment-207998</guid>
		<description>Birgit,

I don&#039;t think there&#039;s a disagreement, as long as &quot;differences between the Aboriginal and the Western way of perceiving&quot; are understood as being learned from the culture, not inherent. That&#039;s how I read it, anyway.

The relation of visual perception and touch is considered quite important in the Pepe Karmel book on cubism (see &lt;a href=&quot;http://artandperception.com/2009/05/cubism-creation-myths.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;this recent post&lt;/a&gt; for a quote). The dominant, empiricist model of learning to perceive visual objects involved associating them with the concrete objects that can be felt and manipulated. After the Impressionists&#039; efforts to learn from the optics of visual perception, the Cubists were interested in re-introducing touch, making objects (and space itself) palpable. Braque wished to re-establish &quot;a tactile or palpable feeling. It&#039;s very nice to make people see something, but if you can make them touch it, that&#039;s better still!&quot;

I find Chomsky very hard to read, and I usually disagree with him.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Birgit,</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t think there&#8217;s a disagreement, as long as &#8220;differences between the Aboriginal and the Western way of perceiving&#8221; are understood as being learned from the culture, not inherent. That&#8217;s how I read it, anyway.</p>
<p>The relation of visual perception and touch is considered quite important in the Pepe Karmel book on cubism (see <a href="http://artandperception.com/2009/05/cubism-creation-myths.html" rel="nofollow">this recent post</a> for a quote). The dominant, empiricist model of learning to perceive visual objects involved associating them with the concrete objects that can be felt and manipulated. After the Impressionists&#8217; efforts to learn from the optics of visual perception, the Cubists were interested in re-introducing touch, making objects (and space itself) palpable. Braque wished to re-establish &#8220;a tactile or palpable feeling. It&#8217;s very nice to make people see something, but if you can make them touch it, that&#8217;s better still!&#8221;</p>
<p>I find Chomsky very hard to read, and I usually disagree with him.</p>
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		<title>By: Birgit</title>
		<link>http://artandperception.com/2009/06/the-eyes-have-it.html/comment-page-1#comment-207988</link>
		<dc:creator>Birgit</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 20 Jun 2009 16:41:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://artandperception.com/?p=4186#comment-207988</guid>
		<description>Steve,

I would like to think that the differences discussed by Deborah Barlow are cultural.  The mentioning that aborigines have a 


&lt;blockquote&gt;“predilection for a sensitivity of touch, a hapticity or physical quality different from the visual sensation of eyesight…The painters seemed to me to understand space as an emotional idea, the capacity to feel this idea often excluding any need to visualise what was represented.”&lt;/blockquote&gt;


makes me think of our children&#039;s desire to touch. I too like to touch but am inhibited by the watchful eyes of the museum guards. 

Thus, I don’t buy 

&lt;blockquote&gt;Bardon’s observations speak to profound differences between the Aboriginal and the Western way of perceiving. David Michael Levin (author of Sites of Vision) makes this distinction: “I think it is appropriate to challenge the hegemony of vision in the ocularcentrism of our culture. And I think we need to examine very critically the character of vision that predominates today in our world.”&lt;/blockquote&gt;



I propose that touching is beaten out of us and therefore, by necessity, we have to rely on seeing. 

The linguistic references look interesting. I might even understand some of what is written unlike a talk by Chomsky that I attended in the midseventies.

&lt;blockquote&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Steve,</p>
<p>I would like to think that the differences discussed by Deborah Barlow are cultural.  The mentioning that aborigines have a </p>
<blockquote><p>“predilection for a sensitivity of touch, a hapticity or physical quality different from the visual sensation of eyesight…The painters seemed to me to understand space as an emotional idea, the capacity to feel this idea often excluding any need to visualise what was represented.”</p></blockquote>
<p>makes me think of our children&#8217;s desire to touch. I too like to touch but am inhibited by the watchful eyes of the museum guards. </p>
<p>Thus, I don’t buy </p>
<blockquote><p>Bardon’s observations speak to profound differences between the Aboriginal and the Western way of perceiving. David Michael Levin (author of Sites of Vision) makes this distinction: “I think it is appropriate to challenge the hegemony of vision in the ocularcentrism of our culture. And I think we need to examine very critically the character of vision that predominates today in our world.”</p></blockquote>
<p>I propose that touching is beaten out of us and therefore, by necessity, we have to rely on seeing. </p>
<p>The linguistic references look interesting. I might even understand some of what is written unlike a talk by Chomsky that I attended in the midseventies.</p>
<blockquote></blockquote>
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